To show that I can do bad football analogies as well as anyone, I have been wondering lately what would happen if advocates of multisite churches applied their thinking to football.
From what we’re told about multisites and online churches…
If that logic is good enough for worship, shouldn’t it be good enough for football, which we’re told isn’t nearly as important?
Besides #4, no-one believes that this is the case. Going to a game is such a different experience than watching on TV that we’ll pay lots of money for the opportunity to do it. It’s not surprising, therefore, that we so often find Perry Noble on the sidelines at Clemson football games, and his leaders in the stands (not that there’s anything wrong with that).
These guys obviously don’t believe that watching at home is as good as being there.
Except when it comes to church.
Talk to any engaged 20-something Christian these days, and you’ll likely find that they can rattle off a list of their favorite podcast preachers. For some, a quick scan of their iPod will probably tell you more about their doctrinal commitments than their local church membership. The relatively recent phenomenon of being able to carry your favorite preacher with you as you’re on the go changes the way we listen to the preached Word of God.
The sermon you hear on your iPod is significantly inferior to the preaching you hear at your local church on Sunday morning. Here’s why:
I’m not saying that we need to delete all of our podcast subscriptions. There are obviously exceptions to all the points I’ve just made.
Clearly, there is value in hearing the Word of God preached well by anyone, but our primary source of spiritual sustenance, beyond our own Bible study and prayer, should come through membership in a local church with a preacher that faithfully preaches God’s Word.
Everything else is gravy. Tasty, but not filling.
(Full disclosure. My own podcast list, in order of most listened to, is Sinclair Furguson, Alistair Begg, and RC Sproul.)
NewSpring preacher, Brad Cooper, summarizes his latest sermon on worship like this:
Worship should matter to us because WE BECOME WHAT WE WORSHIP! So right now as you read these very words you are evolving into your object of Worship. There’s only 2 kinds of Worship objects in this world: GOD & BAD – So who are you becoming?
Are we really evolving into God?
The idea appears in the statement four times, so it doesn’t seem to be accidental.
Some picture!
Some perspective:
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing… The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke… And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing…
The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke…
And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?
Some God.
First, note the new signature. On a few occasions now, readers have mixed up James Duncan and myself. While this is much more damaging to his reputation than to mine, a little clarity never hurt.
Now, I’d like to open a discussion about mega-churches. Let me make it clear that I have never heard James Duncan speak against mega-churches. These views are mine and mine alone. He is certainly capable of agreeing or disagreeing with any of these thoughts, as are each of you. I will attempt to put forward a scriptural view of what Church is, and how it should look. However, admitting that some of this is grey area, I am open to correction.
Two straw-men that must be burnt before we can engage in any authentic discussion on this matter:
For the sake of this discussion, we’ll use Hartford Institute’s definition for a mega-church, which it gives in it’s simplest terms as a Protestant congregation of two thousand or more regular attenders. Again, don’t get caught up in a specific number, but it will help if we all work from the same definition.
With all this in mind, I will now try to answer:
What is Wrong With a Mega-Church?
Absolutely. That word needs to go away. Jesus talked about shepherds because there was one over there in a pasture he could point to. But to bring in that imagery today and say, “Pastor, you’re the shepherd of the flock,” no. I’ve never seen a flock. I’ve never spent five minutes with a shepherd. It was culturally relevant in the time of Jesus, but it’s not culturally relevant any more. Nothing works in our culture with that model except this sense of the gentle, pastoral care. Obviously that is a face of church ministry, but that’s not leadership.
Absolutely. That word needs to go away. Jesus talked about shepherds because there was one over there in a pasture he could point to. But to bring in that imagery today and say, “Pastor, you’re the shepherd of the flock,” no. I’ve never seen a flock. I’ve never spent five minutes with a shepherd. It was culturally relevant in the time of Jesus, but it’s not culturally relevant any more.
Nothing works in our culture with that model except this sense of the gentle, pastoral care. Obviously that is a face of church ministry, but that’s not leadership.
I think most of us understand that you can’t just throw out biblical terms because they are problematic to our methodology, but that’s exactly what Stanley has done, as have hundreds of other “pastors” who see him as a mentor. We must change our methodology to fit scripture, even if that means not packing thousands of seats with people you have no intention of ministering to. It only makes sense that a pastor should not be over a congregation that is too large for him to meet their needs. Of course, some of this physical work is delegated to deacons, but if a pastor is to be held accountable for all the sheep entrusted to him, he needs to have a relationship with them. Some pastors may be able to faithfully attend to 1000 or more members. Some may only be able to care for 20 or 30, but if a person is going to church and not being ministered to, they are actually just attending a performance.
I’m going to stop here for now. If there is sufficient discussion, I may do a series on this, but this should be plenty to get us started.
Someone asked us in a comment yesterday why PP doesn’t just oppose every pastor. The answer, obviously, is that there are many, many pastors doing fine work and preaching God’s word faithfully and intelligently. Besides my own pastor, one of my favorite preachers is Sinclair Furguson of First Presbyterian Church in Columbia. While every sermon he preaches is very good, I’ve linked to a couple that I’ve listened to recently that are simply magnificent. (The links are to the podcast section on iTunes, though you can stream them from the church’s website.) If you have a spare 40 minutes, you won’t do much better than to listen to either one of these.
Jesus: Maveling and Moved
A Grace that Saves Suffices
Here’s what I find so attractive and refreshing:
Preaching does not come after worship in the order of the service. Preaching is worship. The preacher worships—exults—over the word, trying his best to draw you into a worshipful response by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Brad Cooper offered this curious observation over the weekend:
Worship is the ONLY activity of the HUMAN SOUL…. YOU ARE INCREDIBLE WORSHIPERS!
What?
Worship should be the most important activity of the human soul, but you’re stealing a whole lot of bases if you assure yourself and your followers that you’ve got the whole endeavor sown up.
Job (Job 7:11) and David (Psalm 6:3) had bitter and anguished souls that required God’s restoration (Psalm 23:3). In fact, in Psalm 43 it is the very fact that David’s soul is downcast that turns him to worship.
Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God. (Psalm 43:11)
Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God. (Psalm 43:11)
In Psalm 103 David tells his soul to worship God.
Praise the Lord, O my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name. Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Praise the Lord, O my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Was God just wasting his breath when he commanded us to love him with all our soul in Deuteronomy 6:5?
I could go on, but there’s no way that worship is the only activity of the human soul. Cooper presents a pantheistic version of worship. Pantheism says God is everything, which really means that God is nothing. Cooper says that worship is everything, which means that worship is nothing. If my bad attitudes, depressions, doubts and rebellions are worship, God is nothing either.
Cooper’s tweet apparently came from last week’s sermon on worship where he repeatedly taught that “it’s not about the quality of our worship, it’s about the quality of our worship object.” The implication is that we all worship something, so good worship happens when we worship the right thing.
Not so.
It’s like saying, “It’s not about the quality of your marriage, it’s about the quality of your spouse.” If you believed that, what misery and neglect would you have license to inflict on your fine spouse? How we treat our spouse is a central contributor to the quality of our marriage.
If we’re top-notch (incredible was Cooper’s term) worshipers and all we need to do is find God, why does God put so much emphasis on doing it correctly? If Cooper’s teaching were true, we can ignore the second (no images), third (no vain use of his name), and fourth (worship on the Sabbath) commandments. We also can do away with the whole tribe of Levi, whose purpose is was to ensure that God was worshipped correctly. If we don’t need the Levites, we can delete Leviticus as well.
Cooper is presenting a recipe for completely ignoring God. Worship requires discipline and obedience. As we’ve been discussing recently, it’s not just whatever we want it to be. It’s also not something we do all the time. We can cease to worship God, or worship him poorly, without necessarily worshipping something or someone else.
The object of our worship is indeed important, but so is the quality of our worship. Just ask Uzzah. He was a minder of the ark of the covenant who reached out to steady it when one of the oxen that was carrying it to the temple in Jerusalem had stumbled. He was certainly worshipping God with all his might, but he was doing it incorrectly, and God struck him dead for it. (2 Samuel 6:5-8)
Not only does it matter how we worship, but Cooper’s second statement is rendered meaningless by the first. If we worship all the time, what makes us so incredible? My goldfish swims all the time, but you would mock me if I told you that it was an incredible swimmer because of it. It’s an average swimmer, and sometimes it even stops swimming to rest. If it jumped out of the bowl to answer my phone, it would be an incredible swimmer.
Only God can give the verdict that we’re incredible worshippers, not a church leader who thinks everything we do is worship.
One more thing. An incredible worshipper would not ever wish to be known as incredible. Real worshippers just want to show how incredible the worshipped is.
In a recent discussion about what you lose if you try to reproduce church worship online, a commentator posted the following response:
what does it matter? as long as people are being reached for Christ and the doctrine is sound, who cares if online worship replaces physical in-house worship for some? think of it this way, say you live in florida and really like this church in seattle. if you’re able to attend the seattle church online and be ministered to, what’s wrong with the methods used in online worship?
One comment, three questions. Let’s give this a shot.
The acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men.
God’s Word has so much more to say about how we worship than it does about evangelism. Just because we’re trying to attract the unsaved doesn’t mean that we get to override God’s acceptable methods of worship.
If we are to ignore and abandon proper worship just because people are being reached, why include worship in our services at all? The commentator does acknowledge that doctrine is important, though I don’t know why. If evangelism trumps the worship of God, why should doctrine matter either? Actually, if a church’s doctrine suggests that the worship of God can be jettisoned for evangelism, it’s not sound doctrine in the first place.
Recently, we’ve seen Perry Noble mock parents for being concerned about worship, and this comment is in a similar vein. Why be so uptight about worship when people are going to hell?
Why? Because worship is the whole point. Evangelism is the gateway to worship. When God saves us, he regenerates our heart and makes it capable of performing its most important function of worshipping and glorifying God. Instead, the Turnstile Church treats evangelism as a gateway to evangelism. That will work for a while, but at some point the newly recruited recruiters will ask why is it so important to be saved? If it’s just so that you can be a volunteer to help sign up more volunteers, you’re cheapening the faith by running the church the same way as a multilevel marketing scheme. When the primary value and purpose of a marketing operation is in recruiting rather than in enjoying the product itself, loyalty to the product and process is going to be tenuous and temporary.
God-directed worship gives us an answer to the question of why salvation is so important. God, by his grace, adopts us into his family, making communion with him possible and necessary. God desires our worship, and he wants us to worship in ways that he has directed. It’s appropriate to honor him by paying a great deal of attention to what those directions are.
Although it’s not its purpose, worship can be an evangelistic tool. When the unsaved see how we are able to enjoy God’s presence, a jealousy to be a part of that may suggest that the Holy Spirit is drawing that person to salvation, because we know that our natural condition is to rebel and hide from God. So, rather than considering God-directed worship as an optional extra, we should place it front and center and show the world that it is why and how we rejoice in our salvation.
This clip is the subject of some discussion in the Nice Perspective post. R.C. Sproul explains what’s wrong with the seeker sensitive movement.
The first 3:20 is the best, but it’s all worth a look.
On his blog, Nick Charalambous has been engaging the question of whether church and worship can be conducted online. He has many thoughtful posts about the issue, but this section from one in January sums up the question nicely:
Could you not have a physical campus-less church and still be the church as Christ intended it?… Is the disciple-making machinery of church the worship service or the community the worship service creates? If the technology is here, or coming soon, where sophisticated worship services can be experienced in all their intensity anywhere in HD, the real work ahead for the church is learning how to guide and manage community, the kind of authentic community that, in Acts, added to its number daily and changed the history of the world. I think a lot is going to boil down to questions about what’s the role of the weekly service in daily worship? And how important will it be to have a weekly physical gathering spot that belongs uniquely to a specific community of believers?
Could you not have a physical campus-less church and still be the church as Christ intended it?…
Is the disciple-making machinery of church the worship service or the community the worship service creates?
If the technology is here, or coming soon, where sophisticated worship services can be experienced in all their intensity anywhere in HD, the real work ahead for the church is learning how to guide and manage community, the kind of authentic community that, in Acts, added to its number daily and changed the history of the world.
I think a lot is going to boil down to questions about what’s the role of the weekly service in daily worship? And how important will it be to have a weekly physical gathering spot that belongs uniquely to a specific community of believers?
In other words, does worship need a common physical foundation as has traditionally been found in the church sanctuary? My answer to that question is yes. Without a weekly gathering spot we lose the sensuality of worship that God built into it.
Worship is inherently physical. It can’t be fully experienced by clicking a button or watching a screen. Let’s look at ways that worship engages our five physical senses.
When God condemns idolatry, he often does it by pointing out how sense-less the idols were. From Psalm 115:6-8:
They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell; they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.
They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;
they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk;
nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.
Our God, on the other hand, is a sense-able God who asks to be worshiped in a sensual way.
When we try to worship through a computer screen, we have to first take leave of our senses.
One of the most personally threatening aspects of NewSpring’s ministry (and a very good reason why I would not be a member) is the way that leaders casually tear down parental authority. As some of you know, I first noticed it with their Parents Are Clueless marketing campaign, but Noble was at it again last weekend. Although I don’t usually watch his sermons, I watched for a couple of minutes after his scoreboard bit and saw this remarkable threat to the parents in his church.
Earlier in the service, it appears that quite a few teenagers who had returned from the church’s week-long youth camp had gone to the front of the auditorium, just near the stage, and had jumped up and down with their arms in the air while the band performed the songs.
Some of you parents, this is going to bother you, and you’re like, “That’s my kid down there, and my kid’s got their arms raised, and they’re jumping!”… And some of you are like, “I’m going to have to go home and tell my teenager to calm down.” And the reason you’re intimidated is because your teenager probably loves Jesus more than you. But if you’re a parent and that bothers you, …do you know how many parents in America would kill to have your problem? Like your biggest problem is your kid is passionately worshipping Jesus? Ohhhhh! You know, you could calm them down, and God could give you what you want, and that could be his judgment. I would be very careful.
Some of you parents, this is going to bother you, and you’re like, “That’s my kid down there, and my kid’s got their arms raised, and they’re jumping!”…
And some of you are like, “I’m going to have to go home and tell my teenager to calm down.”
And the reason you’re intimidated is because your teenager probably loves Jesus more than you. But if you’re a parent and that bothers you, …do you know how many parents in America would kill to have your problem? Like your biggest problem is your kid is passionately worshipping Jesus?
Ohhhhh!
You know, you could calm them down, and God could give you what you want, and that could be his judgment.
I would be very careful.
Let me ask some careful questions.
These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.
In other words, parents are to teach God’s statutes to their children always and everywhere. (Note: whether jumping up and down is proper is not the issue here. The issue is who has the most authority to teach children how to worship God.)
He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.
A few days ago Perry Noble was wondering about whether he should wear a grope-your-wife T-shirt, and today Brad Cooper wants to know what you think about this:
Is it normal that when Fuse* cranks up the worship, I want to tear my shirt off like the Hulk and just lose my mind!???!
Trying to be helpful again here, Brad, but no, I don’t think so.
Perhaps this is why some denominations make their pastors wear robes or dog collars–to keep their minister’s shirts on and covered up.
In my recent posts on the physical center of the Christian worship, a few commentators challenged the idea that the Christian church should assemble on Sundays. I promised them that I’d explain why, so here it is:
I’m sure there’ll be objections and other observations in the comments, but let me try to replicate a quick Q&A here.
In his long-term goals, [Warren] dreams of having 15,000 members, though only 5,000 attending midweek (p. 363). This isn’t reality; it’s his dream. The Christian service is really just an optional extra.
This is an issue that’s been brewing in the comments to the Turnstile Church post, and it also matters when we start to think about the effectiveness of doing church online.
My basic position is that even though the church is not a building, it is usually found in a building. The fact that Christians function as a church only when they regularly meet in a building makes it a reasonable shorthand for people to refer to that building as the church.
Hebrews 10:25 recommends church attendance with these words:
Not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
As I once pointed out here, the Greek word translated as assembling is episynagoge. It means that Christians are to physically assemble together in one place. The root is synagogue, which itself means a physical gathering point, usually a building.
Yes, church also can refer to all Christians, living and dead, but it most commonly references distinct gatherings of believers who meet each other face to face for regular, physical worship of God. I assume that is our starting point, against which we’ll later assess efforts to redefine the church in ways that take it out of those chronological and physical constraints.
(This post is a followup to this one about the purpose of church.)
A few months ago while watching Brad Cooper’s effing Bible video, I saw the basic difference between the way he and I approach church.
To set the scene, Cooper is welcoming his congregation to a newly built (bamf) facility on the NewSpring campus. He has a very important point he wants his people to understand, so we get this illuminating piece of dialog.
Cooper: I want you right now to tell the person beside you, “This building was not built for you.” So you say, “What do you mean by that, Brad? Who was this building built for?” Seminary student who hadn’t read the script: Jesus! Cooper (in yes-but-really-no mode): Yeah, absolutely. But why would Jesus give us a tool like this?
Cooper: I want you right now to tell the person beside you, “This building was not built for you.” So you say, “What do you mean by that, Brad? Who was this building built for?”
Seminary student who hadn’t read the script: Jesus!
Cooper (in yes-but-really-no mode): Yeah, absolutely. But why would Jesus give us a tool like this?
He explains that because anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, that it’s really for the unsaved friends of the people there, who need to be invited so that they’ll be able to call on the name of the Lord in Cooper’s church. Cooper then lays down the law:
Do you want me to tell you what is failure? Let me tell you what is failure if you believe what we just read. Failure is you showing up by yourself next week. Look at me in the face! You don’t believe the Word of God if you show up by yourself next week!
Do you want me to tell you what is failure? Let me tell you what is failure if you believe what we just read. Failure is you showing up by yourself next week.
Look at me in the face! You don’t believe the Word of God if you show up by yourself next week!
Although Cooper grudgingly agrees with Ms. Seminary that it should be for Jesus, his real LOOK AT ME IN THE FACE point is that it is built for unbelievers who have not yet visited the church. Who’s more important here? God, believers or unbelievers. Certainly it’s unbelievers. Existing believers are told that they essentially are faithless if they also don’t agree with Cooper’s hyperventilating pleas to turn the church inside out to get the unsaved there.
Cooper is not alone. The $700 man, Steven Furtick, flat out told the believers in his church that his church wasn’t for them.
We preach so that people can come to faith in Christ, and we want them to get in a small group and serve so that other people can come to Christ. If you know Jesus–I am sorry to break it to you–this church is not for you. “Yeah, but I just gave my life to Christ last week at Elevation.” Last week was the last week that Elevation Church existed for you. You’re in the army now. We do one thing; we preach Jesus so that people far from God can know Jesus, and then we train them up so that others can know Jesus. It’s called kingdom multiplication. It’s what Elevation Church is all about, and over 500 people have given their lives to Jesus for the first time in this church in the last five months. That’s over 100 per month. If that doesn’t get you excited, and you need the “doctrines of grace” as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you’re in the wrong church. Let me get a phone book; there are 720 churches in Charlotte. I’m sure we can find you one where you can stuff your face until you’re so obese spiritually that you can’t even move.
We preach so that people can come to faith in Christ, and we want them to get in a small group and serve so that other people can come to Christ.
If you know Jesus–I am sorry to break it to you–this church is not for you.
“Yeah, but I just gave my life to Christ last week at Elevation.”
Last week was the last week that Elevation Church existed for you. You’re in the army now. We do one thing; we preach Jesus so that people far from God can know Jesus, and then we train them up so that others can know Jesus.
It’s called kingdom multiplication. It’s what Elevation Church is all about, and over 500 people have given their lives to Jesus for the first time in this church in the last five months. That’s over 100 per month.
If that doesn’t get you excited, and you need the “doctrines of grace” as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you’re in the wrong church. Let me get a phone book; there are 720 churches in Charlotte. I’m sure we can find you one where you can stuff your face until you’re so obese spiritually that you can’t even move.
Watch the video to witness the profound anger here.
Perry Noble shares Furtick’s distaste for churches who cater to God and believers. In fact, Noble’s vision of the church is so backwards and distorted that he sees expressions of worship as insulting profanity.
We have a purpose…and it’s not to be a country club with a steeple on top that gives our community the middle finger and tells them to go to hell because reaching them would make us uncomfortable!
The architectural purpose of the church steeple was to exalt God by pointing skyward, and to invite people to worship by being an unmistakable local landmark. As one Kentucky steeple maker said,
A steeple points one to the heavens, symbol of the dwelling place of Christ. Through city streets, across the valleys and lakes, through the countryside far and wide, the steeple declares Christ.
Where most of us see Christ, is it a complete surprise that Noble sees a middle finger? Actually, it seems that he sees a lot of Christianity this way.
Every week people show up at their stained glass fortressed and give their community the middle finger and tell them to go to hell.
I never see it prescribed in Scripture than when a church reaches a “comfortable” size–usually around 120 people–that the community should be given the middle finger and told to go to hell because additional people might mess up the holy huddle!
Noble equates the discipleship and equipping of believers as middle fingeresque.
Like it or not–Jesus didn’t go to a bookstore, get a theology book by a dead white guy, get a group of guys together that were just like Him and give the world the middle finger because He was obsessed with “going deep!” If I meet one more group of guys who think they are becoming more like Jesus because they are theological superior to people (which, by the way, is PRIDE!) but do not know a lost person by name or refuse to exercise their spiritual gift…and yet claim to be godly…I am going to punch them in the throat!
Like it or not–Jesus didn’t go to a bookstore, get a theology book by a dead white guy, get a group of guys together that were just like Him and give the world the middle finger because He was obsessed with “going deep!”
If I meet one more group of guys who think they are becoming more like Jesus because they are theological superior to people (which, by the way, is PRIDE!) but do not know a lost person by name or refuse to exercise their spiritual gift…and yet claim to be godly…I am going to punch them in the throat!
I suppose Noble’s fist trumps devout middle fingers.
In one of his middle-finger diatribes, Noble lays out his own description of his church, which you can find here. It is all about reaching unbelievers, but you’ll have to look hard to find mention of the worship of God (church purpose #1) or the assembly of believers (church purpose #2).
Noble, Furtick, Cooper, Lamb, Warren and many, many others are trying to redefine church by making it primarily about nonbelievers. If you ask them, they’ll give a perfunctory answer that church is really for God, as Cooper’s seminary guest forced him to do, but their actions and emphasis tell us that it’s mainly about nonbelievers. Cooper and Furtick specifically told their audience that they were more interested in people outside the family of God.
Getting people in the doors is much more important than offering them anything once they walk in. Make them feel bad, conscript them into the army, and get more people in the doors.
Several terms have been used to describe these new churches: emergent, emerging, etc. It’s all very confusing, so I offer a new term: The Turnstile Church.
Definition: Churches that attract people for the purpose of attracting more people for the purpose attracting more people for the purpose…
Feed my sheep? Not so much.